Fear and Anger

[pporter]

I am just stumped. I have a horse in training that I can't figure out. I thought he was an Earth horse at first. Then I ran into some serious issues, and had to reconsider. Just took the typing test for him and he types as just about everything. So that isn't any help!

Here are his stats: He likes attention, comes when called. Will stand still to be tied for grooming or under saddle with rider for hours. He is a solid citizen, for the most part laid back. He will moderately test new riders, he is medium energy, short, stocky and an easy keeper. He has a "baroque" look to him, with large soft eyes. He has no health issues. He is mainly on a grass and grass-hay diet. He is a great, safe, trail horse. Likes to change the "rules", but does so in a laid back, non-offensive way.

Here is the problem: He rarely becomes anxious, but when he does it is extreme, off the charts uncontrollable. His anxiety eventually gives way to extreme anger. When he becomes anxious and/or angry, he can bolt away from his handler, or run his handler down.

It is the extreme anxiety, anger, and bodily injury part that has his owner thinking about selling him if it cannot be fixed. Things that set him off are the farrier equipment, rain on the metal roof, and trailering to one particular location in which there is a dam in the distance (figure that one out!). He has bolted away from his owner at a state park before, and she had a hard time finding/catching him.

What type of horse is this? What is out of balance? We have tried some herbal calmers, and the homeopathic remedy aconite.

Patti

[mward]

Patti,
It is frustrating when you get a horse that does not fit into a type. These horses often have personality issues from previous handling that is over riding their true type. My initial response is that he may be a Jue Yin Wood/Fire horse. These horses like attention and enjoy doing fun things but they can get afraid and try to take over. They often go from 0 to 10 like you suggested. The challenge is teaching these horses to respond rather than react. Lots of ground work and teaching the horse to move his feet in a specific way rather than bolting.

Starting over with a horse like this and looking for holes in the initial training is a good plan. Take him to the round pen and get him focused on you and looking to you for leadership. Then introduce lots of new objects and noises in a controlled way. Once this horse can move any foot anywhere you want it even when the energy is high you should be safe to go on the trail. Make sure you take any brace out of the body and that the ribcage bends easily and you have good lateral flexion and a good one rein stop. Let me know if you think this will be helpful. Madalyn

[pporter]

I was wondering about the Wood element. He does get pushy in a dangerous sort of way, but I don't think he would ever bite or kick.

The horse is liberty trained, and has extensive ground work. We have been for a few months now setting up scenarios where he gets anxious, so that we can school him to move forward, back, move the shoulder, hindquarter and ribcage. He gets SO anxious that he must be tied to a trailer, or in cross-ties for us to maintain control. When we went to the state park where the dam is, we kept two leads on him at all times, and it took one of us on each side to maintain control while leading. It is impossible to set up scenarios where he is only a little bit anxious, as he is either full-blown anxious or not at all - that 0 or 10 thing. He will maintain the anxiety level at maximum for an HOUR or more, before switching to anger mode.

I teach dressage, but my specialty is actually liberty and ground training natural horsemanship style. I've been doing it successfully since I was 13 years old (and I'm 40 now!). I'm telling you this so that you understand that there has been no stone left unturned in his ground training. That is why I was wondering and hoping that there could be an imbalance that we could address nutritionally, or something herbal or homeopathic that would lessen the anxiety.

He has had a sample sent to Patsy about 6 months ago. He had a kidney stone, and was having multiple minor colics at the time. Both have resolved since Patsy's treatment.

Patti

[mward]

Patti,
You may want to look at the in training blend flower essence from equilite. I have not used it but it seems like a good fit for this horse's behavior. I will share what I had to do with my Jue Yin mule and you can decide if you want to try it.
I had to get pretty severe with Tess to get her to focus on me when she started to go into her check out modes. I had a stop and turn hackamore that I rode her with and it had a solid metal bar under the chin and a rope noseband. When she was behaving it was very mild but when she started to take over and get out of control I could get her back focused on me by sharp jerks on the rein. I often hoped no one was looking when I had to do this because I would normally never jerk on a rein.
I often had to jerk repeatedly until Tess would yield and let me flex her neck and move her feet without bracing. Once I got her attention she would lick and chew and get totally relaxed. Almost like slapping a person who is getting hysterical. At first it did not seem like I was making any progress but over several months Tess had fewer and fewer episodes of out of body experiences. Finally it got to the point where the minute I would see her head so much as go up I would prepare to jerk if needed. She learned to not even go there and eventually I was able to safely ride her with a halter and I can say that she has not had a take over moment in years.
I totally understand if you are offended by this suggestion but I tried all the options you have tried first including different nutritional products, homeopathy and flower essences. Tess in now a safe and happy mule where she was miserable and unsafe before I stepped up and did what I had to do to get her attention. I would not ever do this with any other type but it sure did work for Tess. Madalyn

[pporter]

I am not offended. I used to own a Wood horse! My Fire horse may actually be a Wood/Fire, I definitely see Wood traits in him. I have had boarders leave my stable before because they think I was treating these two brothers way too harshly. I sold the Wood - I didn't like his kill mentality. The other sibling I have kept, for his traits are there, but much more benign (he more about he love, and how handsome he is).

We have tried numerous control halters on my student' horse, but none of them can give us control when he decides to bolt. I am pretty strong, he is the only horse that has ever gotten away from me. Fortunately, these episodes do not seem to happen under saddle, and the horse is trained to a one-rein stop, giving the student precious seconds to dismount just in case an episode were to occur. The problem we have is that we cannot get tough enough on him when he is in-hand, for fear of triggering the bolt reflex. I have tempered this reflex a little bit through liberty training.

We are making a little progress, and what I am hearing from you is to keep plugging on - that it could take months before he gives in.

Thanks for your input.

Patti

[mward]

Patti,
It sounds to me like you are doing the right things and you either need more time to convince this horse that you are not going to give in or you need to step up the consequences for attempting to bolt. If a one rein stop gets this horse to refocus then it seems to me you should be able to achieve the same thing on the ground. Have you tried leading him at all times in a bit for more control? If you can get his hind end to move at the very first hint of tenseness you may have a chance of avoiding the bolt. It may take a bit in his mouth to give you enough control to keep him focused on you.

If I were working with this horse I would make him focus on me every moment and I would not even allow him to look off or take his mind off me for a second. I realize this in not a pleasant way to be but a horse like this is dangerous until he learns not to react so much. Madalyn

[pporter]

Leading in a bit is a good idea. I'll make sure he's wearing one under his halter next time and see how that works.

[syeh]

Hi Patti,

I have two Wood-type mares. One is a straight Wood and the other is a Shao Yang, Fire/Wood. The Shao Yang is a hot little mare but she's all about the job, so I tend to be able to keep her focused with a challenging job because she is so competitive.

The Wood mare has issues, much like you describe with your Wood/Fire and your previous Wood horse. It was so bad (she bucked and shied so much that we could not even make it to our jumps) that I quit riding her for a couple of months. She hurt my back too much and was too hard to ride. Madalyn recently suggested RelaxBlend from Equilite. My hubby is an herbalist and had the same combo of herbs so he made the formula for me. I have been giving it to the Wood mare and it makes a huge difference in taking the edge off. We ride trail a lot and usually beavers, ducks, and the like can send this mare off into la-la land. The other day a beaver slapped it's tail in the water and the mare just turned her head and looked. The usual response would have been to spook 5 feet laterally and throw in a buck or two. None of that happened. She just looked. She still spooked later in the trail ride, but it was very mild. These herbs do seem to do a lot to take the edge off.

I've had similar issues as you with Wood horses. I came within an inch of selling this Wood mare, only she's soooooooo talented that I haven't. I'm taking her to a show this weekend so we'll see how it goes, but so far the herbs are working well. Hope that helps your situation with your Wood/Fire, perhaps.

Cheers,
Stephanie

[pporter]

Thanks for the information. I'll forward it on to the owner of the horse (I'm the trainer/care-taker).

I have dealt with two Wood mares and a Wood gelding. The Wood mares were training horses, and I ended up sending them home. The Wood gelding was mine, but after a year I was still convinced he was going to kill me - so I sent him off to someone who apparently didn't have the same regard for her life as I do for mine.

As I am getting to know my Fire horse better, I am seeing very strong Wood elements. Last I tested him he tested as Wood/Fire, or Jue Yin. Makes sense, as he is half-brother to the Wood gelding. His traits are maneagable, however, and most of the time he acts more like an Earth horse.

I find it interesting that as we experience our horses more in difference circumstances and learn more about them, we realize their consitution is different than we first suspected.

Patti

[mward]

Patti,
I had to laugh at your valuing your life comment. I could not agree more but it is amazing how many people get along with and enjoy Wood horses. I think our temperament makes a huge difference in what kind of horses we like.

I am finding that it can be hard to type horses, especially if we don't know all their history. If we can recognize their underlying temperament despite personality issues created by life experience we can really get to know a horse well and send them to someone who is a better match or handle them in a way that is suited to them. Madalyn

[jmorris]

I'm a little late to this party but thought I would throw in my 2 cents. I have had very good luck using the nervine herbs. I have used them on both my mare and her daughter. Both have anxiety/fear type issues and both required a different nervine herb! I muscle tested (similair to what Patsy does) all 4 of the nervines to determine which one was best for each horse. Both mares are Wood/Fire combos and the younger one does have some water traits (like mentally "checking out") Here is the article about the nervines: http://www.herbal-horsekeeping.com/arti ... horse.html I did combine the chosen herb with passion flower - which is used as a catalyst to deliver the nervine. I buy my herbs in bulk from www.herbalcom.com I try to buy cut and sift as it is much more readily eaten, but some only come in a powder form. Let me know if you have any questions (like dosing) on what I did for my mares. You may also want to check out my update to the hair analysis thread on page 7. I have come across a pretty remarkable energy therapy that targets emotional problems.

Jill

[pporter]

Thanks, this is good information. We are still having a problem with this Wood/Fire horse, even on the Relax Blend herbs.

Patti